The Cathari and Modern Sinless Perfectionism
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. James 1:13-15
Because it is necessary that our faith be tested, as James says previously in the first chapter, people might think that God was the cause of the sin that might come from the testing.
James dispels that fiction. The source of sin is in ourselves, and comes from a corrupt nature. This corrupt nature we carry with us until the resurrection, when this corruption puts on incorruption. At that day we will be completely conformed to Jesus Christ, for we shall see Him as He is. Until then, we struggle and labor to live godly lives,purifying ourselves because of the hope that we have received from His promises.
There have always been those in this great movement we call Christianity who drift off into small puddles of theology, corrupting themselves and those who follow them. One example of these are those who profess sinless perfection. They have been known by many names in the history of the Church: Cathari, Paulicians, Bogomils, and perhaps some among Montanism and other things. There were many variations of this heresy, but one thing they had in common was a claim to live without sin.
There is an element of the Cathari in Arminianism and it will surface if you probe for it. The main tenet of Arminianism is that man must add something to faith in order to be saved.
The spirit of condemning other and professing sinlessness must have arisen very early for John deals with the heresy in his first epistle. We would not even be aware the the corruption of our nature, our "flesh" if it were not revealed by the word and Spirit of Christ.
John writes in 1John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Note: We cannot be Christians if we walk in darkness.
If we walking the light, we confess our sins and they are forgiven us and we are cleansed from "unrighteousness" not the corruption of our nature, but defilements of the law of God. We are washed from our guilt by the blood of Christ.
It is true that the Holy Spirit is also given to us to emplant a new nature that seeks obedience, but Adam's nature is not rooted out until the resurrection of the dead. All of our lives the "flesh" of Adam's nature will war against the "spirit" and will be the source of all kinds of sins, if we do not walk in the spirit. [Gal. 5.] If any man think that he stands, he should take heed lest he fall.
The claim of sinlessness is a proof of self-deception and of not walking in the light. [1John 1:10.] John Wesley revived some of the foolishness of the Cathari and is the root of the heresy of "Second Work of Grace Holiness" a fiction and destructive to the souls that labored after it, for it took their focus away from the Spirit and blood of Christ to their own works of holiness.
The followers of the Cathari laugh at faithful Christians and mock them with such phrases as "cheap grace" and "easy believism." They never seem to ask themselves of the horror implied in these labels: that the grace of God does not contain sufficient value in the blood of Christ unless we add something of ourselves into the formula; or that the labor and work of Christ was not difficult enough to earn our salvation unless we contribute our own works to it.
See my article on "easy believism" at:
http://basketoffigs.org/misc/believism.htm
If you are a real Calvinist you will be accused of antinomianism by those who are experts on sin, or you will be accused of legalism by those who refuse to be bound by any law. If you get shot at from both sides, you probably have it right.
It is often not profitable to argue with these people, for they are blinded by self-deceit and have closed their minds to the corruption that runs amok in their associations.
Basket of Figs
A vehicle for venting on philosophy, religion, and the general state of things. Proprietor: C. W. Powell
Thursday, December 31, 2009
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Wednesday, September 16, 2009

Sinful Peace
In a sinful world, war is not only good at times, but at such times it is sinful to refrain from war.
Re 17:14 "These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful."
Pacifism is of the devil and plays right into his plan for world domination. Thank God the Lord Jesus is not a pacifist. His garments are dipped in blood and He goes forth conquering and to conquer. His enemies come against Him with lies, hatred, blood, and violence, but he overthrows them all.
Isa 42:13 " The LORD shall go forth as a mighty man, he shall stir up jealousy like a man of war: he shall cry, yea, roar; he shall prevail against his enemies." If war is evil, then God is compared to an evil man.
The trouble with effeminate pacifism is emptiness of thought replaced by emotion. Yes, Hitler and Mussolini tried to gain their evil goals by war, but the non-thinkers do not realize or admit that their evil goals were stopped by war and the blood of brave men of the Allies. The blitzkrieg was not stopped by children wearing flowers in their hair.
The Bible pronounces woes upon those who set good for evil and evil for good. Isa 5:20 "Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!"
There is a effeminate and blind form of Western Christianity that thinks that if you are nice to bad people, they will become good people. Charles Finney taught that if the person you witnessed to did not believe, then you had failed in your presentation of the Gospel, and you better work on your sales technique. People who bought into this deception and taught it had to get results from their "evangelism" or they were condemned by their own doctrine. So they watered down the proposition, appealed to the selfish desires of unbelievers and milked the mobs for "decisions," proving to themselves and their followers that they were led of the "Spirit." They perfected their sales techniques and recorded their magnificent results. They became so nice that fame and fortune came their way and huge churches were built to accommodate the worldly cravings of their converts.
Whatever hell they accepted was the hell of the machine, that built into the system by an absent First Mover, not the personal God of the Bible, and certainly not the One who is angry with the wicked every day and makes war upon His enemies.
The Holy Spirit says that rulers are the instruments of God:
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. --Romans 13:1-4
If the ruler, however, becomes the instrument of evil and rewards the wicked and punishes the good, then he might be lawfully resisted and overthrown. Thomas Jefferson captured this doctrine in the Declaration of Independence, an expression of the doctrine of the rights of the people developed over many years in conflict between the church and the state from the Middle Ages on.
This American doctrine expressed by Jefferson was the result of the struggle for liberty that was rooted the the theology of John Calvin and the influence of Geneva. From there it passed to France and the struggle of the Huguenots, to Holland and the struggle for liberty from Phillip II. John Knox and the Scots picked up the flag in Scotland and from there the flame burned into England and the Puritan revolution. After the triumph of law over tyranny in the victory of William and Mary over James II and aristocratic totalitarianism, the flame came to America in the War for Independence, led by the sturdy Calvinism of the Scots-Irish and the German Reformed. This Calvinism was always opposed by the effeminate theology of the unitarians that had begun to infiltrate the Congregational churches of New England and the elitist aristocracies of New York, Virginia, and the South. The aristocracy was always drawn to effeminate arminianism because they thought they were a cut above the savages of the Western part of the United States. The struggle for the minds of the West would become a very long drawn-out affair that is being played out even today, evidenced in such political wars as abortion, gun control, pacifism, global warming. Of course, the effete elite want these, for why should savages breed, have guns, and make war? Too many savages will heat everything up and destroy our cocktail parties. The elite are safe if the unwashed don't do this.
European aristocracy and elitism opposed this surge of freedom every step of the way. John Wesley and Methodist sided with the aristocrats and tyranny as did the English bishops. It was the Presbyterian parsons and the Reformed ministry that gave intellectual and moral impetus to the forces of liberty.
Jefferson was not talking about "visualizing world peace" or holding hands, thinking good thoughts, and singing "kumbaya" when he wrote "And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes, and our sacred Honor."
And Patrick Henry, in that other great moment before the Virginia Convention, when he said "Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!" he was referring directly to the doctrine of liberty developed from the scriptures over the years since Calvin.
The last resort of the enslaved was an appeal to the God of hosts, to war and forceful defeat of their oppressors.
It has not come to this yet in the United States. We have the ballot box, but we must be vigilant to see that elections are not stolen by a corrupt process. We must be willing to suffer the contempt of fools and the calumny of the wicked to preserve the hard-won liberty that we have, but which has been greatly eroded over the past century.
The magistrate that puts down evil and rewards the righteous must know the difference between good and evil. He must know the efficacy and the virtue of the sword, both against domestic and against foreign tyrants and abusers of liberty, and be prepared to use it to protect the citizens. He also must know the difference between citizens and non-citizens, and any politician who does not know the difference but would try to have our borders invaded by non-citizens in order to gain electoral advantage must be banished from the halls of government and left to languished in ignominy and disgrace as a traitor to the United States.
1Peter 1:13 Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; 14 Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.
Jer 48:10 "Cursed [be] he that doeth the work of the LORD deceitfully, and cursed [be] he that keepeth back his sword from blood."
Thursday, September 10, 2009
That Other Knocking.
You have heard that Christ stands at the door and knocks. There is a verse in Revelation 3 that is often misinterpreted as though Christ were standing at the door of a person's heart, knocking, asking, pleading to be allowed to come in and dwell there. Even in art it is sometimes represented as a door without an outside knob, only able to be opened from the inside, for even Christ cannot or will not challenge the sinner's sovereignty, or so they thought.
It is all wrong, of course. The passage in Revelation applies to the door of the church of the Laodiceans, who thought they were rich and wise and needed nothing. Christ was not in the church but did call to people within that apostate church to receive Him and He would dwell with them. This means that even though a church may be worthless, yet Christ may still transform the lives of individuals; the message of Christ might be separate from the church, although the church is the pillar and ground of the truth when it is faithful to Christ.
But there is another passage of Christ standing at the door. It was not nearly as popular with Arminian evangelists as the other one that they twisted to suit their theology.
This other incident is found at James 4:9 "Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door."
Those who refuse to be reconciled to their brothers lie under the wrath of God, Who will not forget. Mr 11:26 "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."
A grudging, hard, unforgiving heart is a graceless heart. The new birth gives us a new spirit: "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."
--1Peter 1:22,23.
The judge is at the door. You won't like it when He enters.
You have heard that Christ stands at the door and knocks. There is a verse in Revelation 3 that is often misinterpreted as though Christ were standing at the door of a person's heart, knocking, asking, pleading to be allowed to come in and dwell there. Even in art it is sometimes represented as a door without an outside knob, only able to be opened from the inside, for even Christ cannot or will not challenge the sinner's sovereignty, or so they thought.
It is all wrong, of course. The passage in Revelation applies to the door of the church of the Laodiceans, who thought they were rich and wise and needed nothing. Christ was not in the church but did call to people within that apostate church to receive Him and He would dwell with them. This means that even though a church may be worthless, yet Christ may still transform the lives of individuals; the message of Christ might be separate from the church, although the church is the pillar and ground of the truth when it is faithful to Christ.
But there is another passage of Christ standing at the door. It was not nearly as popular with Arminian evangelists as the other one that they twisted to suit their theology.
This other incident is found at James 4:9 "Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door."
Those who refuse to be reconciled to their brothers lie under the wrath of God, Who will not forget. Mr 11:26 "But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses."
A grudging, hard, unforgiving heart is a graceless heart. The new birth gives us a new spirit: "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever."
--1Peter 1:22,23.
The judge is at the door. You won't like it when He enters.
Saturday, September 05, 2009
What Was Moses Thinking?
Ex 20:11 "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
Ex 31:17 "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed"
I suspect that Moses' writings are internally consistent, for he was not a foolish man. He had Genesis 1 in mind when he wrote Exodus 20 and Exodus 31.
Of course, Christians are not to keep the Jewish sabbath of the 7th day, which was a sign of God's covenant with Israel by Moses [See Heb. 7:14 and others], but it was a "day" they kept, not an indeterminate age or mental concept. It is a very dangerous thing to use scientific "consensus," which is always changing, to correct the Scriptures, which cannot be broken [John 10:35].
It is not a fatal error to misread a passage of Scripture, for many wise and godly men have been foolish here and there, but error may reveal a faulty hermeneutic or a faulty application of a good hermeneutic. Misunderstanding Scripture is not the same as unbelief, but it is certainly a heavy burden, resting on the shoulders of those who think that "day" mean "age" or "literary device" to prove their point.
A more important point is to ask "What was God thinking?" when He had Moses write those words. God does think, you know. Jesus also warned us of the importance of Moses' writings:
John 5:46 "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"
Ex 20:11 "For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
Ex 31:17 "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed"
I suspect that Moses' writings are internally consistent, for he was not a foolish man. He had Genesis 1 in mind when he wrote Exodus 20 and Exodus 31.
Of course, Christians are not to keep the Jewish sabbath of the 7th day, which was a sign of God's covenant with Israel by Moses [See Heb. 7:14 and others], but it was a "day" they kept, not an indeterminate age or mental concept. It is a very dangerous thing to use scientific "consensus," which is always changing, to correct the Scriptures, which cannot be broken [John 10:35].
It is not a fatal error to misread a passage of Scripture, for many wise and godly men have been foolish here and there, but error may reveal a faulty hermeneutic or a faulty application of a good hermeneutic. Misunderstanding Scripture is not the same as unbelief, but it is certainly a heavy burden, resting on the shoulders of those who think that "day" mean "age" or "literary device" to prove their point.
A more important point is to ask "What was God thinking?" when He had Moses write those words. God does think, you know. Jesus also warned us of the importance of Moses' writings:
John 5:46 "For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?"
Friday, September 04, 2009
Great Start for New Geneva
We have completed the first week of classes for the 17 year of New Geneva Theological Seminary in Colorado Springs. Got a bunch of fine students and the first week was really fun.
We have a new registrar, who is also professor of Old Testament, Dr. Mark House. He teaches OT Survey III and Hebrew Exegesis.
I had way too much fun for a 75 year old this week. Tuesday was Survey of Church History I and Doctrine of Revelation and Inspiration. Wednesday was Person and Work of Christ and History of Philosophy and Logic. Great students make an old man look good.
Then Sunday I get to fellowship with God's people and preach a second sermon on why our lives are too much filled with strife.
How much fun and joy is this? eh?
We have completed the first week of classes for the 17 year of New Geneva Theological Seminary in Colorado Springs. Got a bunch of fine students and the first week was really fun.
We have a new registrar, who is also professor of Old Testament, Dr. Mark House. He teaches OT Survey III and Hebrew Exegesis.
I had way too much fun for a 75 year old this week. Tuesday was Survey of Church History I and Doctrine of Revelation and Inspiration. Wednesday was Person and Work of Christ and History of Philosophy and Logic. Great students make an old man look good.
Then Sunday I get to fellowship with God's people and preach a second sermon on why our lives are too much filled with strife.
How much fun and joy is this? eh?
Labels:
seminary joy
Wednesday, September 02, 2009
Whose Thoughts?
The problem God had with the prophets of Israel is that they spoke their own thoughts.
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?" --Jeremiah 23:16-18
How could a mere man who will die and have his brain eaten by worms be so puffed up as to think that his mind was sufficient to explain the universe and his place in it? Pride is a sort of insanity and intoxication that even the strongest liquor cannot produce.
"No evil shall come upon us," they strutted. "God is good and will not do evil," is the way they comforted themselves, not seeing the fallacy of their thought, for if God is good it certainly will not be well with the ungodly. How could a good God approve their blasphemies?
What they really needed to be concerned about was the thoughts of God. For Jeremiah continues:
"Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly." Jeremiah 23:19, 20.
People should not be so drunkenly enamored of their own thoughts and intoxicated with the pleasing words of the false prophets. What they need to be concerned about is the thoughts of God. Even more, they need to be concerned about Him DOING the thoughts of His heart, and that is exactly what He promises to do. They won't like it when it happens, for it will come in His fury, like a grievous whirlwind that scatters everything with utter destruction upon the head of the wicked.
Lesson: God knows, and He knows that He knows. He also knows what He will do and what He will not do. He has said that there will at some day be a terrible destruction of the wicked, against which they will not be able to stand. Drunken stupors brought on by pride will be no comfort in that day.
Ephesians 5:11-14 "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."
The problem God had with the prophets of Israel is that they spoke their own thoughts.
"Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the LORD. They say still unto them that despise me, The LORD hath said, Ye shall have peace; and they say unto every one that walketh after the imagination of his own heart, No evil shall come upon you. For who hath stood in the counsel of the LORD, and hath perceived and heard his word? who hath marked his word, and heard it?" --Jeremiah 23:16-18
How could a mere man who will die and have his brain eaten by worms be so puffed up as to think that his mind was sufficient to explain the universe and his place in it? Pride is a sort of insanity and intoxication that even the strongest liquor cannot produce.
"No evil shall come upon us," they strutted. "God is good and will not do evil," is the way they comforted themselves, not seeing the fallacy of their thought, for if God is good it certainly will not be well with the ungodly. How could a good God approve their blasphemies?
What they really needed to be concerned about was the thoughts of God. For Jeremiah continues:
"Behold, a whirlwind of the LORD is gone forth in fury, even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD shall not return, until he have executed, and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart: in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly." Jeremiah 23:19, 20.
People should not be so drunkenly enamored of their own thoughts and intoxicated with the pleasing words of the false prophets. What they need to be concerned about is the thoughts of God. Even more, they need to be concerned about Him DOING the thoughts of His heart, and that is exactly what He promises to do. They won't like it when it happens, for it will come in His fury, like a grievous whirlwind that scatters everything with utter destruction upon the head of the wicked.
Lesson: God knows, and He knows that He knows. He also knows what He will do and what He will not do. He has said that there will at some day be a terrible destruction of the wicked, against which they will not be able to stand. Drunken stupors brought on by pride will be no comfort in that day.
Ephesians 5:11-14 "And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light. Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light."
Saturday, June 20, 2009
Dealing with Contentiousness
Following is part of an exchange with a friend on FaceBook.
=====
--beginnning of FaceBook Transcript--
That is a fact, but what does a church that exercises discipline look like, I wonder. More one on one confrontations with the elders? or elders' wives? More congregational exhortations? More members confronting members? We have great preaching, but discipline lacks greatly.
We lost an elder because one man, a contentious fellow, was allowed to keep on badgering the elder in Sunday School. For whatever reason, he would challenge the elder with this and that "deep" question... Finally, the elder left (for more than one reason). Should not the contentious man have been kicked out rather than us lose a good man!
I want to see the contender gone, but our pastor can't seem to exercise discipline...
---------- it is not the pastor's job to exercise discipline, except where he is a member of the empowered body. In the RCUS, the body is the Spiritual Council, made up of elders and ministers. The judicial procedures of complaint, witnesses, trial, etc. are carefully spelled out in the constitutions.
Yes, the contentious person should not have been allowed to act in such a way. An elder should have reproved him, and if he remained contentious, evidence should have been gathered, charges made, and a decision made according to the government of the church and denomination.
In the RCUS contentiousness is especially marked out in the constitution for discipline, but in practice, to our shame, it is sometimes tolerated beyond godliness.
--end of transcript from FaceBook.
=======
Comments on the above
Earthly discipline is very hard in churches, sometimes. People lie over and over. Relatives protect one another. Other agendas intrude and corrupt the procedures. Ministers often do not believe in the constitutional provisions for discipline and opt for more "compassion" and "empathy," forgetting the damage to the church by self-will, rebellion against authority, and transgression of the law of God. They take the easy way.
But it must be done. Ministers and elders who do will be maligned, bullied, and slandered. But what is new? Jesus and the apostles also experienced these things.
Surprisingly, the church that disciplines, even though it will be criticized and maligned, will also gain the respect of the community and people of good will. Those who have an ax to grind will continue to gripe and complain, but the church and its officers will be respected for being willing practice what they preach.
From the constitution of the RCUS:
"An offense is anything in doctrine, principles, or practice of church member, officer, or judicatory that is contrary to the Word of God and nothing shall be admitted as matter of accusation or considered an offense which cannot be proved contrary to the Scriptures or to the regulations of teh Church founded on them. The following sins especailly merit discipline: heresy, schism, blasphemy, adultery, forniation, lascivious wantonness, theft, fraud, perjury, lying, contentiousness, intemperance, profanation of the Lord's Day, impudent scoffing, cruelty, and other violations of the Ten Commandments."
Following is part of an exchange with a friend on FaceBook.
=====
--beginnning of FaceBook Transcript--
That is a fact, but what does a church that exercises discipline look like, I wonder. More one on one confrontations with the elders? or elders' wives? More congregational exhortations? More members confronting members? We have great preaching, but discipline lacks greatly.
We lost an elder because one man, a contentious fellow, was allowed to keep on badgering the elder in Sunday School. For whatever reason, he would challenge the elder with this and that "deep" question... Finally, the elder left (for more than one reason). Should not the contentious man have been kicked out rather than us lose a good man!
I want to see the contender gone, but our pastor can't seem to exercise discipline...
---------- it is not the pastor's job to exercise discipline, except where he is a member of the empowered body. In the RCUS, the body is the Spiritual Council, made up of elders and ministers. The judicial procedures of complaint, witnesses, trial, etc. are carefully spelled out in the constitutions.
Yes, the contentious person should not have been allowed to act in such a way. An elder should have reproved him, and if he remained contentious, evidence should have been gathered, charges made, and a decision made according to the government of the church and denomination.
In the RCUS contentiousness is especially marked out in the constitution for discipline, but in practice, to our shame, it is sometimes tolerated beyond godliness.
--end of transcript from FaceBook.
=======
Comments on the above
Earthly discipline is very hard in churches, sometimes. People lie over and over. Relatives protect one another. Other agendas intrude and corrupt the procedures. Ministers often do not believe in the constitutional provisions for discipline and opt for more "compassion" and "empathy," forgetting the damage to the church by self-will, rebellion against authority, and transgression of the law of God. They take the easy way.
But it must be done. Ministers and elders who do will be maligned, bullied, and slandered. But what is new? Jesus and the apostles also experienced these things.
Surprisingly, the church that disciplines, even though it will be criticized and maligned, will also gain the respect of the community and people of good will. Those who have an ax to grind will continue to gripe and complain, but the church and its officers will be respected for being willing practice what they preach.
From the constitution of the RCUS:
"An offense is anything in doctrine, principles, or practice of church member, officer, or judicatory that is contrary to the Word of God and nothing shall be admitted as matter of accusation or considered an offense which cannot be proved contrary to the Scriptures or to the regulations of teh Church founded on them. The following sins especailly merit discipline: heresy, schism, blasphemy, adultery, forniation, lascivious wantonness, theft, fraud, perjury, lying, contentiousness, intemperance, profanation of the Lord's Day, impudent scoffing, cruelty, and other violations of the Ten Commandments."
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Links
Blogs 'n Stuff
- Wheat and Chaff [Matthew Powell's Blog]
- New City of the Gospel [Rick Palma--very good]
- Two Edged Sword [Lee Johnson]
- Swinder [Profitable stuff--Highly recommended
- Two Reformed Guys--interesting
- Philologous
- Unalienablerights
- Red Sky Brothers
- A PRIORI ASSUMPTIONE: J. Mader. Sharp.
- Terry Pruitt
- Wittenberg Door
- In Principio Deus
- Soli Deo Gloria
- League of Reformed Blogs
- Dead Men's Voices-Episcopalian
- Olive Tree Library and Journal
- Dawn Treader [Very Good]
- Hugh Hewett
- RadioBlogger
- Google News
- Real Clear Politics
- Townhall
- World Magazine Blog
- Power Line. Read every day.
- Fraterslibertas
- NewMax:Get on the email updates
- Clip Art Warehouse
- Clipart etc
